How To Startup with Cliff Fluet

It’s a holiday re-gift! Today we take you back to the very first How To Start Up with Cliff Fluet. This was a great conversation that set the stage for the rest of our HTSU interviews. Cliff begins at the beginning – guiding us through the essentials of startup evaluation and asking the necessary questions: Does your innovation solve a real-world problem, can it sustain a business, and are you ready to step into the real world for testing?

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Episode Transcript

Machine transcribed

00:14 - Tristra (Host)

Trista here just kicking back with a hot chocolate and a pile of insightful articles about music technology here at the Music Tectonics Chalet. It's that festive time of year and I'm glad you could join me. I'm setting aside my very weighty hat as chief strategy officer at Rock Paper Scissors, the music tech PR firm, and I'm donning a cozy stocking cap, you know, kind of sparkly, with one of those little pom-poms at the end, because that's how we roll here. Hey, hey, wait, hello. What is this? A secret Santa present, I think. Let me unwrap it here. Hmm, I think I've heard this one before, but it's an old favorite that's been thoughtfully regifted and that's what we're giving you for this holidays. It is the very first. 

01:05

How to start up with Cliff Flouet Better than a big mug of eggnog for a night like this. Cliff's wonderful interview was the start of our series how to start up, which is all about well, wait for it how startups can leave hurdles, find cool approaches to the business and thrive. If you haven't heard our conversations with various leaders in the industry and their journey to begin their companies, you should take a listen. They all have how to start up in their title and are easily searchable on your favorite podcast platform. Well, I hope you enjoy this blast from the past, our little gift to you, and also hope you have a fabulous unspecified winter holiday and keep cozy and bright. We'll catch you next year. 

01:56 - Dmitri (Host)

Hey Cliff, how are you doing? I'm very good indeed. How are you, dimitri? I'm good. Thank you so much for joining us. Cliff is the Managing Director of Eleven Advisory and he's also a partner and the Joint Head of Media and Entertainment at the law firm Lewis Silken in London. Cliff, tell us a little bit about yourself and your expertise. 

02:14 - Cliff (Guest)

So my background I'm well into my third decade of being in and around the music industry and probably music tech has been the one unifying theme. After qualifying as attorney, I spent a few years at Warner Music. I then spent a few years as general counsel as a big, large commercial radio group in Europe and then, for the last 18 years, I've been a partner at Lewis Silken. For the last 10 years I have identified as legal, curious, as I really wanted to get much more on the strategic side, working with startups and scale-ups. So, more on the strategic side, working with startups and scale-ups. 

02:45

So, um, I have the pleasure of working with some really big companies on their strategic initiatives, particularly around digital media, digital music, and the bit I really really love is working with startups, um, scale-ups and the companies that go into hyper growth. Um, for the last uh 10 years, um, one of my first clients was one of the world's first generative AI companies, which company, which was exited to a small, plucky startup called TikTok, and I've sold and worked with many businesses around immersive technologies, blockchain technologies, artificial intelligence, data insights and all the good things that everyone now is suddenly finding that there's some real value there. 

03:28 - Dmitri (Host)

Awesome. It's so great to have you. You've got such great expertise and I've had a blast talking to you in the past and I'm excited about our conversation today. It may be strange for you and for me to go to the very beginning, to the idea stage, as we talk about startups coming up with an idea, but on the other hand, you have all this expertise and experience. It'll be really interesting to rewind to the beginning. Oftentimes you and I don't talk to startups at this stage. They've already gotten pretty far along, but how have you seen successful startups come up with their business ideas and then validate their ideas? Let's start with the brainstorming phase. What have you seen? 

04:04 - Cliff (Guest)

Well, there's one business where I met with them they were Abbey Road Studios. They were doing a pitch and they had a one-page PowerPoint which just had a picture of one person pointing to many people and it was an adaptive AI stuff. And so I sat down and said, right, guys, I'd love to see the business plan. And they went that's it. That's all we got. It was one slide of a deck and that's probably the earliest I've ever started with a business. But again, you know, that is a very successful business which exited to one of the biggest companies on the planet, and it is one where we took, really took the journey from how do you go through the key validation points and pivots and things like that. So, talking about going back to the beginning, I mean how I hone my thinking on all of this is that I think that when you know, as an attorney, you know there's no copyright in an idea, right, right, I can have an idea for flying cars, or you know hover, you know um, you know hoverboards or anything else fantastical, as it were but unless it's unique, unless it's ownable, unless it's patentable or registrable or something like that, there isn't any inherent value. But long, long, long before. Then there's kind of a three uh, three level tests that I look at anything in the music tech world, which is one does the technology exist? You know there's lots of slide wear and vapor air out there. Number two, is it a real solution? And number three, is there a business there? And what is interesting is that you can have two of those things, which is great, but it's not necessarily going to succeed. You're going to have to really, really demonstrate, and I'll delve into that a little bit more. 

05:53

I mean, you know, with regard to the technology, there's a lot of technology in search of a solution right now. Someone's got I've got this incredible platform, I've got this incredible app, I've got this incredible this, but what does it solve? So that's question number one is is the technology real or is it there? Some people, well, they think they've got to fake it until they make it, or they've seen too many documentaries about people and getting the wrong lessons from them, et cetera, et cetera. But the technology has got to be real, but, probably more importantly, the solution has got to be real. But probably more importantly, the solution's got to be real. 

06:25

There's a lot of what I call imagined problems in the music industry. So you've got a classic one which most startups say is well, this industry has a real problem with transparency and opacity. Depending who you speak to, they like it just the way it is and that ain't a problem, right? So a lot of the time, these solutions in search of a problem. Is it a real solution? Is it something that's going to add value? Is it something that's going to create more? 

06:53

I've got my own personal um views that you know. The music industry sees all kind of music technologies as either a maker or a taker. And if you get put in the taker bucket, like certain big platforms have just done with this this week, they ain't going to play nicely with you. But if you're seen as a maker you're additive, helping to solve problems, having some real world problems then you're going to get there. And then, probably the last of those things, as I mentioned, is there a business there? There are lots of technologies out there which do solve problems, but it's going to be commoditized or you're not going to be able to charge for it, or you're not going to be able to come up with a scalable model that is investable. So in those first ideas, those are the things when I'm working with companies when they're having the ideation phase. 

07:46

Now, the trick on doing that as being as an advisor is how you do that without poo-pooing everything. How do you do it? You know, a lot of the time someone comes up with something and just through dint of age okay, no one's ever thought of a business that does this it's like I I know five of them right and they all failed and that's probably a data point in and of itself. So you don't want to be that guy, but sometimes I have to be that guy. Sometimes you really I have to be that guy. 

08:10

Sometimes you really want to test the technology and when people aren't being really open or straightforward with you, it's probably because it doesn't exist yet. Now, if it doesn't exist yet, that's fine, but you've got to say so, You've got to say so. And then really, I think that where advisors working with advisors come is to work out is the solution real, is this an imagined problem or is this a real problem? So if you can get through those three gates of turning into a business it being a real solution and the technology being sound you start to get to an idea of this is something that can build and scale and grow. It's a painful lesson, it's a tough lesson, but those tests seem to be pretty robust and it certainly worked for me. 

08:47 - Dmitri (Host)

Whoa, we've kicked off this episode of how to Start Up with a bang Cliff. This is epic. So you mentioned. Is there a real solution? Is there something that actually needs to be solved here, or is this a manufactured solution? Does the technology exist? Can the technology actually exist? Is there anything there? Is there any there there in terms of the actual technical solution, and is there a business model here? How are you going to keep this going if you can't generate some revenue from it or an acquisition or something there as well? So those are great, amazing tips right out of the gate. Love it. Thank you for sharing so much there. So let's say, somebody has ticked off two or three of those boxes. They've taken care of that. I'm sure there's another process. You've gotten through the idea phase. What do you do to validate your idea? What do you do next? 

09:36 - Cliff (Guest)

Validating the idea is absolutely key, because you know you can call it a thesis, you can call it a white paper. At the end of the day, it's a guess, right? So you've really then got to take it out into the wild and you've got to have people who are going to trust you enough to give you access to data or customers and to be able to to run it into the wild again. This is one of the reasons why working with advisors works really well, because they're going to be able to walk you into those places to be able to test those theses as well. So we talk about that business that we talked about the adaptive AI business. They had a fantastic proposition which could basically change music live in real time midstream. 

10:17

And I said to the guys they said, look, there'll be a day when people will be able to manipulate music. And I said, look, that'll happen in 10 years. I was out by about a year to manipulate music. And I said, look, that'll happen in 10 years. I was out by about a year, right, but for now, the labels and publishers are not going to allow you to do this. 

10:31

So we decided to go down a lateral approach, which is well if we can't change the music, let's try and change the ads around the music. So we actually developed essentially to prove the capabilities of the technology by doing something that we could do rather than doing. And I think that the other thing I would just say is that when you come to the validation perspective, um, you have to see this as chess, not checkers. Right, as a startup, as a as an entrepreneur, as a founder, people want to go immediately to the other side and, you know, be able to jump through all of the hoops, etc. Etc. But in the chessboard you say, look, we're going to have to go and prove this, probably in a different area, a different type of customer. 

11:13

You may want to boil the ocean with the music industry, but perhaps you have to test it with podcasts or advertising or something that you don't see as quite as sexy or as interesting, but you can genuinely go and validate the idea. So sometimes you need to leave the sandbox in order to make sure that it's actually going to work and it gives you a much safer and broader example. You know, sports companies are really comfortable working with data. Advertising businesses are really comfortable working with data, creative businesses are so. So why not go into a more benign environment to be able to test it? And people will say, but Cliff, where are music startups? We're just validating it. 

11:52

So I suppose, really, what I'm saying here is finding a safe space to be able to validate. 

11:57

Your space is essential, and I'll give you a space and time to be able to develop your mvp. Whereas you know, and then they get other people no, I have to go and do a deal with a major label. And he said but why? And it reminds me of the old days when speaking to artists and say I want to sign to a major label, this, this is not a great deal for you guys at this point, but but I just want to tell my mom I've done a deal with and so you get some startups that way as well, but just want, want to be able to say, hey, we've done this great deal with this major label, et cetera, et cetera, and I just wouldn't start there. I'm not saying don't go there, just don't start there. So validate your proposition in an industry where you can add value, where they welcome the technologies, where it's more of a known quantity, and use that as an example to demonstrate how and why your position is validated. 

12:46 - Dmitri (Host)

Wow, drop of knowledge here. I love it. I have never heard anybody say it that clearly, and that is so. That just makes so much sense to me. The last couple of years at the Music Tectonics Conference, we've partnered with the Universal Music Group doing a startup bootcamp and in 2023, they brought us into a beautiful UMG studio. And another piece of what I'm hearing from you and you've kind of mentioned it, but it wasn't one of your main points they validated this, too by saying look for advisors who have experience in this. Another way to validate your idea is to talk to veterans and use people like you, cliff, to vet the idea, to say is this possible? How will this be possible? What are some routes to get there as well? So there's another kind of fast-forward button on validating something is to work with somebody experienced like you, which is pretty cool. 

13:36 - Cliff (Guest)

Or again, it also offers proof points and offers points of comfort as well. It's a wonderful business I'm involved with called Ordu, and I met the founder in late 2019. And I was really impressed that the guy had gone to the gumption, had the gumption to go and approach the chair of the biggest PRO and basically say right, what problem can I solve? That's a very different approach to what most people do. Most people like to stride in the room and say, hello, I'm here to save your business, or I'm here to save your industry, or I'm here to save your bacon, whereas actually, that kind of humility of being able to work with those other people who really know what they're talking about in that particular field, it's a real proof point to investors, it's a real proof point for other advisors, but also as well, it really allows you to be able to test and check your proposition well. 

14:25 - Dmitri (Host)

Amazing. All right, we have to take a quick break and when we come back, I want to ask you what happens if you can't validate your idea. What do? 

14:31

you do then We'll be right back. Open your calendar app, get your planner, take a note. The Music Tectonics Conference will be back November 4th through 6th 2025. You saw how great it was in 2024. If not in person 6th 2025. You saw how great it was in 2024, if not in person, then on LinkedIn and Instagram. We're doing it again in 2025. Same great venues, same great beach, interstellar programming, galaxy-wide network. You ought to be a part of it. So see you in Santa Monica on November 4th through 6th 2025. Want to get updates? Tap the musictectonicscom link in the episode show notes and get on our mailing list. See you there. Okay, we're back here, cliff, and I wanted to ask you if you could remember some specific music startups that stopped completely before investing too much time. They made it through brainstorming, they made it through some validation, or maybe during validation they realized this is not going to work. Do you have any memories about that validation? 

15:25 - Cliff (Guest)

they realized this is not going to work. Do you have any memories about that? Um, to be honest, when that happens, one of two things happens. Um, there's a bunch of people who have got I think I call it sort of business plan brain freeze right and it's like no, no, but the business plan was this and we're just going to keep sticking to it. We're just going to keep going. All the points of validation aren't happening. The response from the market isn't happening. Four or five people in the market said it's not happening, but we've just got to keep carrying on right and people hold on to a kind of a business plan like it's uh, like it blanket, really in terms of comfort. And then there's phase two, which is the pivot. Oh, and, by the way, all of the businesses in that former camp, they all died. So what you're saying is people on the early stage. 

16:17 - Dmitri (Host)

People actually don't, they don't want to hear it, they just keep going. 

16:22 - Cliff (Guest)

That's what you're saying Just keep going, I will double and triple and quadruple down, whereas the most successful companies on the planet every single one of them pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot you know it's innovate pivot succeed, innovate pivot succeed every single time are the hallmarks of, literally, of meta, of apple, of amazon, but their business models evolve, evolve, evolve and pivot and grow every single time. 

16:51

Very few of these businesses just sort of double and triple down and the ones that just stick with it your, your nokias, your yahoos, your um, you know, legacy print businesses, etc. Which is let's just keep going, it doesn't work for them and it's certainly not going to work for the startup. Now, I think that a lot of people see that pivot as some sort of compromise of vision, and actually I think that what people need to understand is it's a pivot of execution. If your view is that you want to make I don't know royalties more transparent, or to democratize music making or boil the ocean on data insights, want to make I don't know roles who's more transparent, or to democratize music making or, you know, boil the ocean on data insights or lots of really fantastic businesses too, there's nothing wrong with that vision, but having purity on execution no-transcript. 

17:41 - Dmitri (Host)

Gotcha, you know what. Before we go, I want to ask you some more questions about pivoting, because I think what you said is critical. Like you've said, you've seen it, All the successful companies have to do it to some extent. But I want to just stop for a second. Before we get there and go back. Let's say somebody does successfully validate an idea pretty early. They've got a great idea. They're working with a veteran team or a partner or something where they're like oh I see this here. I'm curious. Once they've gotten there, how do they get even more focused? We'll come back to the pivot. What are the early moves to build a business that startups that are listening right now should be thinking? 

18:13 - Cliff (Guest)

about. Well, to be honest, the word pivot, you know it implies some sort of massive kind of 90-degree turn. But actually, even with regard to those businesses that validate, each one of them is developed or iterated. I've seen many a business where I said, okay, we're, we're going to be an advertising based business and they end up being rolled into a social network inside business. Or you've got businesses that are originally there for I don't know, communications and they turn into polling businesses or, um, they to hardware and they realize, actually the hardware it's a bit like the razor blade business. They're a kind of a uh, it's, it's a, it's a lost leader for a much broader sass-based business as well. So I think that the key about all of these businesses, either if it's a major pivot or even if it's an iteration as well is the constant development, redevelopvelopment, re-forecasting, checking, development, innovation, product innovation, being able to show that you can do more than one thing at a time absolutely essential for a company to grow. If you look at the most successful startups in the industry as well, very few of them have just done one thing. What they have done is been able to create a multi-headed solution to a whole bunch of problems that we've gone and that they've developed and grown and been able to actually broaden their product suite. So, again, it is a form of consistent evolution rather than revolution that needs to be born in mind the whole time. 

19:40

Every CEO at the beginning of every year say, right, what is this year's challenge? What are the black swans? How do we grow? How do we develop? How do we do this, whereas there are too many businesses who say, right, I want to raise $1 million in the first round, $10 million in the second round and then I want to exit in three years. That's a wish, not a strategy. What you're going to need to be able to do is demonstrate scalable growth, be able to show something absolutely tangible and life-changing or be able to develop new products and services. That's going to get you those milestones. Simply raising for the sake of raising will not work. Doesn't matter how many fundraisers you go to, doesn't matter how many conferences you go to. It's just not going to work so I'm curious. 

20:22 - Dmitri (Host)

A lot of startups are a one-person show. At the beginning they might be technical and they're just pounding away at an MVP or some kind of platform or some kind of product. Or maybe it's a duo. Somebody's got the sales business or marketing mindset and then they've brought on a technical co-founder to build and so forth, or marketing mindset, and then they've brought on a technical co-founder to build and so forth. When you meet a company that's at that phase, say they validated you, you like their idea. You can see they're being agile, they're willing to switch to different verticals if needed, to test things out, play in somebody else's sandbox and then come back to music, etc. What are the other first things they should do? 

21:03 - Cliff (Guest)

I think that I've alluded to this, but I think that it's about. For me, it's all about the curiosity. You know, I meet many of these people and they're on broadcast for an hour and then they said, right, okay, well, maybe we can find a way of helping. You've just talked to me for an hour, right, you've not asked any questions, you've not thought about these things, and it's not like I've got the answers. But that lack of curiosity, I mean there is something about music industry which people conflate consumption with expertise, with extraordinary ease. Right, I've listened to all music all my life and therefore we've done that. 

21:39

And often I have to break it down, lots of these businesses that say, oh, if I were to say to you, dimitri, as a prospective client I've come up with a new technology that's going to revolutionize the gas industry. I don't know how gas is made, I don't know how it's distributed, I don't know it's paid for, I don't know it's charged, I don't know how the supply chain works, but I'm going to disrupt it. I think you'd be a little bit skeptical, right. Well, I get that most days about the music industry. Yeah, you know they don't understand the rights or what they will do is point to the technology and say but blockchain, I mean, you know that was my favorite one that blockchain was going to magic away copyright or regulation. 

22:17

And you know, when you're as old as I am, you heard that shit about the internet. You heard it about social. You heard it about UG, utc. You're hearing it now about ai. It's like dude, whereas the business is where they do. They're like why does that work that way? What are the things that we can do? 

22:34

And I think that that curiosity is what I'm looking for in the founders. Um, with the founder team. It's a really interesting dynamic, right it? To a certain extent, it is like a marriage that you're sort of getting involved with and actually you know it's a really interesting dynamic right. To a certain extent it is like a marriage that you're sort of getting involved with and actually you know it's very much hard truths, but also they tend to be quite a check on each other. 

22:54

With solo founders, you end up with people who are, by their very nature, self-starters, focused and going through. But the ones that realize they need a squad around them again are the ones that I have seen succeed, and some of these people are the smartest people I've ever met in my whole life. But they have the humility to understand. They don't know everything, or at least they're prepared to have it done. The ones who dismiss it out of hand and those can be duos or solos as well. That you know. Frankly, I I just say look, I wish you all the very, very best and, um, you tend not to hear from them again you know, I suspect there's some people listening who are early in their startup to this podcast right now, today. 

23:33 - Dmitri (Host)

they're listening right now and maybe they're a little deflated, but maybe they're saying I want to do some self-reflection. I do, I want to, I want to, I want to take on the mindset that cliff is suggesting here and maybe we can fast forward it a little bit by talking about some of the things that you're seeing. You mentioned some of the big picture topics that have come up. Startups have shown up and said I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. It's going to change everything. When you look at the market right now, cliff, what ideas do you think are ripe for success? And then after that, let's talk about which ones are ripe for failure. But what are some ideas that you see that are emerging that the music industry or society or culture or business is ready for now? 

24:11 - Cliff (Guest)

Well, one thing that I've been, you know, as we've become more connected, we've become more disconnected. You know the tragic issue of social. We thought it was going to be a cleansing light, like you know, arab Spring and helping democracies, etc. Cetera. And unfortunately, we've been algorithmatized and, frankly, we've been more divided than I can certainly remember as a society. Now the good news is that it does feel like people want to come together, they want to come with experiences, they want to engage. So I am a big fan I've been a long time a big fan of the whole superfan model. 

24:47

I think that you're seeing people want to have a deeper and broader engagement with creators. I've seen it in sports. I see it with influencers and digital influencers and YouTubers, as we used to call them, and I'm seeing that in the world of music, which I think is incredible. I think that the idea of music moving from a static, one-way, linear to a return path to an ability to be able to play and adapt and personalize like we can all other contexts is really, really exciting, and I'm involved with a number of businesses that are doing that. I think that there's a genuine understanding now that, um, whilst people don't understand how music is getting played and they don't know how it's getting paid. I'm really interested in a bunch of businesses that are sort of joining the dots, being able to realize the value, because it's fantastic if something's been played somewhere or gone out there, but unless we've got the ways of getting paid. 

25:40

And I think that what's fantastic is that technology isn't of themselves, the solution, and I think that's the thing that I would say to a lot of people. Right, it doesn't matter if it's blockchain, it doesn't matter if it's AI, it doesn't matter if it's, you know, unicorn dust, etc. Etc. You know, the real question is that a lot of people mistake the technology with the solution. Right, you know, know, you would have had this couple years ago with web3, but blockchain and blockchain will mean this and blockchain will mean that no, but I do think that distributed ledger technologies, particularly in an ai-based world where you need sources of truth, could come in really quite handy right now. Right? 

26:20

So what people need to understand is that do you want to invest in NFTs because it's an NFT, or are you investing in it because it's something that is collectible and someone that people genuinely want? Right, you know, for me, you know what people see as NFTs you could call vinyl right, you know most of it goes unopened, but people love buying it because it shows affinity, it shows fandom, it shows all those expressions of love that you've got. So I think that it's a really, really exciting time for the industry. But there needs to be a focus on value and also, if you are going to navigate the industry, you've got to know the players. If you want to win the game. There's two ways you cheat or you learn the rules, and then you win. The latter one tends to work. 

27:07 - Dmitri (Host)

Yeah, we've seen some people who cheated at first and then figured out how to change the rules a little bit. 

27:14

I don't know who you mean Maybe I should just leave it there. So that's interesting what you said about Web3 and NFTs in particular, because obviously there was a lot of excitement as well as some criticism Not last year, but the year before 2022, I think it reached its ultimate hype cycle there and your response of sort of you know, are you interested in NFTs because NFTs are trendy and hot right now, versus because you see there's a market for collectibles and there's a new way to do collectibles that is interesting, has another type of value, and so forth? Are there any other popular startup trends right now that you think are that you're cautious about? Maybe they're ripe for failure, but at least, or you're just thinking it's got that hype cycle that doesn't really demonstrate value. What are you sort of like when somebody shows up with a startup startup pitch today and you're like I think you're just saying that because it's trendy or I don't think it really has as much potential as it's been stated? 

28:12 - Cliff (Guest)

yeah, I mean, look, you know, a couple of years ago it was blockchain and ft's. This year it's ai, but of course, the truth. But again, is it because it's ai or is the ai doing something that's genuinely innovative? That is the question you need to ask about any form of technology. Is it the data, or is it what the data can do? It can be refined and made useful, et cetera, et cetera. 

28:34

There's nothing inherently interesting in AI, not least that companies like Microsoft and Google and Meta are going to be able to outpace you when it comes to that. 

28:42

So, really, the question question is you really want to be focused on the solution in and of itself, but the idea that technologies will invert copyright or invert regulation, or people have invented their own form of public domain or dmca or section 230, you know, people just love, love, love, assuming, inferring that these things are going to happen and they don't. They just don't. So the real question is is how do you use these technologies within the guidelines, within the boundaries, in order to be able to create those values? I go right back to the beginning of delivering those solutions and those are, I think, really, really exciting, and I think that there are some things that are way out there at the moment no-transcript. We still haven't found a really good way to play in a way that genuinely allows win-win type value, et cetera, et cetera. So the opportunities for music, I think, are legion, but what needs to happen is just don't focus on the tech, focus on the solution. 

30:07 - Dmitri (Host)

Gosh, he keeps coming back to that guys, that's, that's what he's gonna hold you to when you call him and consult with him. Um, I mean it's interesting because I've heard so much criticism, for example, of the metaverse and vr and mixed reality, because that was on a hype cycle. I've heard so much criticism of live streaming. You know these were, these were the cycles before the AI, before the blockchain and Web3 stuff. But what I'm hearing you say it's not so much whether it's metaverse or live streaming, it's more just like what solution does it solve? 

30:35 - Cliff (Guest)

Well, look, I mean again, you know, you don't even have to be that old to remember the dot-com boom, right, and in 2001,. That's it, the internet is over. Right, and in 2001, that's it, the internet is over. Right, you know, there's one of our biggest newspapers in the UK. You know, internet dies as a passing fad was a headline in November 2001,. Right, and you know. 

30:59

But people were speculating on URL routes. Businesses were getting the domain chocolatecom and IPOing on the back of the word, right? So again, we looked at the noise and not the signal, right, you know the idea that we were going to be able to transfer to these entire new worlds of value. We didn't anticipate these things. And you know distributed measure technologies, which in many ways Satoshi's white paper goes back to Napster, and peer-to-peer things. If you look at the underlying valences of all these things, people say they've changed nothing. They've kind of changed everything. Right, and algorithms and large language models in 2012 and 2013 in relation to neural networks and 2017 in relation to large language models, to be able to create the kind of explosion that we're going to have in terms of AI. The problem we've got is that a lot of the terms don't get your arms around it. So the idea that, you know, again, people did genuinely speculate on urls and people were buying something. Everyone thought the value and then thought it's about having the platform actually was about having the business. 

32:07

So, in the same way that people wrote off the internet mobile internet do you remember, dimitri, about 2002, 2003,? Wap, nope, nope, it's dead. The mobile web, it's not a thing. It's not a thing, right? So that is kind of how I do that. And again, with regard to the metaverse, et cetera, et cetera, I just say digital worlds, oh, the metaverse is dead, really. Go and ask. Fortnite is dead, really. Go and ask Fortnite. Go and ask Roblox, go and ask Epic Games. 

32:33

They're doing just fine, and we as an industry could learn a lot from what they're doing. 

32:38 - Dmitri (Host)

Great, awesome. Thank you for those insights. I am very curious. Almost to go back to the beginning of this conversation, maybe you don't have any ideas yet and we want to figure out. Where do you know where success is going to be? But before I ask you that question, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. 

32:56 - Tristra (Host)

If you're enjoying this podcast, you really need to come hang out with us. How can that happen? Well, it's very simple. 

33:03

Seismic Activity which is our Music Tectonics free online event series. About once a month we convene the music tech community for networking. About once a month we convene the music tech community for networking discussions and demos by innovators and inventors. So come join us and tune into the tremors that are about to be major shakeups in the industry. See our upcoming topics on the schedule and register for our next event at musictectonicscom. Now, these aren't your usual sleepy webinars. 

33:41 - Dmitri (Host)

I mean would you expect that from us? No, of course. Seismic activity is fun, fast paced and interactive. Anyone who works where music and tech meet is welcome. See you soon, before it forms, so they can ride the wave to success. 

33:50

I've seen it happen multiple times in the music industry. Sometimes it's an artist who figures out, you know, online video is the place to be, and they build up their kind of following there and they ride it, you know, right into another business or something like that. We saw people were trying to do it with Clubhouse during the pandemic, where they thought I'm going to be a Clubhouse influencer and people invested so much time and energy there they may have gotten it wrong that time. We see people doing it on LinkedIn now and on the business side as well, but we've seen it on TikTok, we've seen it on Instagram from an artist's perspective, but we've also seen it from a business perspective too. The folks that did figure out what the right mixed reality business was at the time, or figured out what the right web three business was at the time, or now the ai businesses that are actually solving real stuff how do you, what's the mindset or what? 

34:39 - Cliff (Guest)

what do you do to find the wave before it forms, so that you know when you hop up on your business surfboard you're actually going to be successful well, I think that, um, you know I'm going to torture your analogy here about the surfing, the wave right, you've got to have the right board, you've got to have due course, stability, you've got to keep your eyes open. People are riding the wave right now. The first time I ever got on a surfboard, I sort of clinged on, closed my eyes and hoped for the best. It didn't end well, and that's what you don't want to be doing as a business. What you want to be doing as a business, right. What you want to be doing is saying, right, do I know these waters that I'm going in? Do I know where the wave is? And you can't begin to understand where the next wave is coming until you understand where you are. And I think in a lot of businesses you'll ask them well, where are you? Well, we don't know. We've got this idea, or my friend's got a theory, et cetera, et cetera. What I think for the most successful businesses that I've ever seen, they actually understand what is my platform, what is my core strength, how do I have the stability, how do I be able to grow, how do I know how to navigate these waters, where are the buoys and where are the edges that I need to be looking for. Those are the things you can do. 

35:49

I often say this for companies that I work with hope is not a strategy All right, and there are a lot of businesses out there where, if you really drill down to it, their only strategy is hope. I hope that Microsoft buy us, I hope there's an. And look, you know what People win the lottery? Not many people win the lottery, and if you, if you're comfortable with those kinds of odds, then that's great. 

36:12

But if you want to be doing it, you've got to be much more strategic. It's got to be chess rather than checkers and be able to say right, I have a strategy and when I get to the next step, I know where I'm going to go from there, or at least I'm going to put myself in a position where I can know where I can go, where I can go, so you can surf the wave, you can run the board, you can check the odds on poker pick your analogy. You've got to have a strategy. What you need to be doing is working with people to be able to help hone, define and revise your strategy at all times. 

36:45 - Dmitri (Host)

Okay, awesome. I have one last question for you. What other resources or methods do you suggest startups tap to come up with the next big thing? This is the episode of Is my Idea? Any Good People are all over the place with their ideas. They might be further along with a startup or they might be ready to pivot, but I'm curious what other resources you have in mind as we wrap up the episode. 

37:06 - Cliff (Guest)

Well, I mean, depending on the type of startup that you are or where you're from, I would just keep saying you've got to be curious. If you don't want to test your idea, it basically means you don't believe in it. I would go so far as to say that If you're not prepared to test it, then you really don't believe in it. So what you need to be able to do is be able to go out to people in industry in things. You need to do your research about who else is out there. I get lots of companies saying there are no competitors to my business and say, oh well, there's this business over here called Teacup that does exactly what you do. If I know that, then you don't know that. Then that tells me something. 

37:47

Make sure that you're there, test the idea, go out there and really, really, really be curious. That's really all I can say as a general. And then for the specifics, really do your homework. Speak to people in the industry, speak to players, speak to the opportunity, be able to demonstrate it and be able to show people that you've got something that's going to have the devalue, that's going to have the solution, it's going to have the technology and really, really turn into a business and a lot of the time. If you've got two out of three and you're working with someone to look for that third bit, that is all cool. You do not need to be the finished article. I do find a lot of people allow perfection to be the enemy of the good, or, oh, I'll come to work with people when I've got it refined. No, you need to do it before that. 

38:28 - Dmitri (Host)

Yeah, great, this is amazing. I just want to say, as you talk about going out to talk to people and see who's out there, see who the competitors are out there, I just want to throw in a couple of thoughts of my own. You know, conferences are a great place to see where people are doing stuff, where the activity is as well. So if you hadn't thought about that, like one of the values of going to a conference is to kind of scan the horizon, see who's active, who's investing money and being out there doing deals and so forth, and obviously there's a lot to read about as well. Follow the Music Allies, follow the Billboard, the Music Business, worldwide Music Business. 

39:01 - Cliff (Guest)

Worldwide. You know, it's just incredible. You know, in just, you know, music Ally, music Business Worldwide, we all read it, we all send the articles to each other the next day, et cetera, et cetera. You know, south by Southwest, tectonics, music biz, great escape. You know, pick your conference and be able to do that and do your homework and it will be much more impressive if you do. But coming into the idea of I'm going to save the world and I'm going to tell you how to do it, et cetera, et cetera, I just haven't seen that work, Cliff. 

39:31 - Dmitri (Host)

this has been amazing. If people want to get in touch with you, I suppose they could go to 11advisorycom and contact you that way. 

39:39 - Cliff (Guest)

Sure, or hit me up on LinkedIn. I found out yesterday the number one social platform for millennials in Gen Z. I know right, because they're all on it. They're all on it, they're all on it. They all want a job, so find me on LinkedIn or find me on a panel somewhere. I'm usually there for diversity reasons, because there aren't enough lawyers. 

40:03 - Dmitri (Host)

Cliff, it's been great. Thanks so much for joining us on the Music Tectonics podcast. 

40:07

It's a real pleasure. Take care. Thanks for listening to Music Tectonics If you like. It's a real pleasure. Take care and, while you're there, look for the latest about our annual conference and sign up for our newsletter to get updates. Everything we Do explores the seismic shifts that shake up music and technology, the way the Earth's tectonic plates cause quakes and make mountains. Connect with Music Tectonics on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. That's my favorite platform. Connect with me. Dimitri Vietze, if you can spell it, We'll be back again next week, if not sooner. 

Let us know what you think! Tweet @MusicTectonics, find us on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram, or connect with podcast host Dmitri Vietze on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook.

The Music Tectonics podcast goes beneath the surface of the music industry to explore how technology is changing the way business gets done. Weekly episodes include interviews with music tech movers & shakers, deep dives into seismic shifts, and more.